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However, I ended up loving it for what it is. SPRINGFIELD ARMORY - SAINT 16" 5.56 BRAVO CO MLOK HANDGUARD. A Magpul dual split aperture flip-up rear sight was attached to the top rail that ran the length of the receiver. Fun as all get out to rattle off the range. I put a ton of ammunition through this rifle, and everything workedtypical of the MCX series. It opened up at about 3 inches and penetrated 12.7 inches, retaining 192.8 grains of its original bullet weight. But like you, I also bought the SA Saint Victor 300 BLK pistol, which is very well made. [ARCHIVED THREAD] - First AR15 purchase; SIG M400 TREAD v. Springfield Saint Victor? The efficiency and versatility of barrels have been upgraded to take advantage of heavier bullets able to land a more effective blow at greater distance. This website contains many older reviews. I wrote SilencerCo another letter, under a different email. Ive tested full-size rifles that werent any more accurate than that. This test was performed cold, one and done with no makeups. The trigger was forgiving in any situation, and construction was first rate. Springfield Saint with FDE, OD Green, and Stealth Grey Rattlecan Paint Job. So, I spread the wealth equally. Brand: Springfield. On the M400, there is an extension that adds surface area in an L-shape, making it much easier to operate. Magazine release from the left side was a little easier if pressure was applied more toward the rearward edge than over the center of the button. All in, our CMMG rifle displayed 1-MOA accuracy on average for all shots fired, despite our difficulties with the trigger. I cant understand that. There was, however, a relief on each side of the handguard about 2.5 inches ahead of the receiver for attaching a quick detach (QD) button-style sling loop. (Tie) B&T .45 2. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. This removed any slack between the upper and lower ends of the rifle. Another latecomer to AR manufacturing, Ruger has proven fast in picking up the rules of the game. Thanks Bio. Its perfect for indoor situations where 25 yards is a long shot and overpenetration is a concern. Even knowing how short the barrel is, I was surprised at the low velocities nothing produced over 2,000 feet per second (fps), not even Black Hills hot 50-grain Optimized TSX load. A wide selection of CMP surplus ammo will 2023 JNews - Premium WordPress news & magazine theme by Jegtheme. He is a gun owner and avid reloader from Colorado. Bob Meinert, FN Marketing Director, introduces FN's first commercial pistol suppressor, the FN Rush 9Ti. As long as you are not expecting rifle-length performance out of a barrel this short, you wont be disappointed. Type: Semi-Auto Pistol. Nice Sig collection BET7, And I also play the field , I really like my Black Rain Ordnance 5.56 , I would like to add a couple more Black Rains to my collection . MCX-SPEAR . Sig Sauer The AR Pistol Afield. The handguard does not have a rail on the top except for a very short section near the muzzle. I can't get my hands on the DD5 which I really prefer. check out the, Welcome to the Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Forum, we hope you like what you find here and we strongly encourage you to. Thats pretty much what youd expect from a V-MAX. Non-Lethal Personal & Home Defense with Byrna, Range Tested: EAA Girsan Pistols & Shotguns, New for 2023: Christensen Arms Modern Hunting Rifle (MHR), New for 2023: All-American RIA 5.0 Sporting Pistol, New for 2023: FN Rush 9Ti Pistol Suppressor, New Big Bore Pistols for 2023: FN 510 Tactical and FN 545 Tactical, New for 2023: FN SCAR 15P Rifle Caliber Pistol, First Look: Taurus Raging Hunter 460 Magnum Revolver With 10.5-Inch Barrel, New-for-2023 Taurus Judge Executive Grade 410/.45 Colt Revolver, Smith & Wesson Equalizer and the Brand New M&P 5.7 Pistol. In measuring trigger-pull weight, we arrived at an average of about 7.2 pounds. Neither rifle is "top tier," so to speak. With the specs they listed, the barrel couldnt be much more than 6 inches, and it had to havethe ability to swap between the specd .300 BLK top end and one chambered in 5.56. AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own. FIRST LOOK: Sig Sauer MCX Rattler, the Worlds Smallest Rifle. On a full-size rifle or carbine, I think the relieved magazine well of the Saint Edge looks a bit small, but on this build it looks just right. The Sig Virtus has these possible configurations: 300 Blackout: Barrel Lengths 6.75", 9", and 16" 5.56mm : Barrel Lengths 11.5" and 16" The Virtus is the more flexible platform, but there is nothing wrong with the Rattler. Barrel-twist rate was 1:7, and breaking down the rifle revealed a reduced-mass hammer. The 300 Blackout pistol model is no different, but few shooters miss the bells and whistles with a gun that goes bang with every trigger pull and hits the mark. Their latest addition is the Saint Edge PDW AR pistol, and Im sure it will get its large slice of the AR pie. I had several concerns due to its comically short barrel, its accuracy, reliability and velocity. The second can was the Dead Air Sandman-K, which is slightly heavier at 12.8 ounces yet only 0.7 inches longer. And yet, accuracy from the bench was on par with our other test carbines. I was able to get 10 hits out of 10 on the top portion of an IPSC silhouette at 100 yards with the Lehigh Defense load and Barnes subsonicswell within the designs parameters. Compare. I fired the Rattler off-hand from 10 and 15 yards with the earlier test loads and a few others, including Winchesters 150-grain Deer Season XP ammunition and Noslers 220-grain BTs. The upper circumference was reduced, guiding the index finger to the trigger. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. The only upgrade we spied was a relief in the takedown pin that helps keep the punch, or bullet tip, from sliding off under pressure. Anything beyond 100 yards and that starts to fade. If you need a discreet weapon for 100-yard engagements, its perfect. I realize in the current climate you may have to take what you can get. Why pay more? SIG MCX Virtus & SIG MCX Rattler Rifles | SIG SAUER But upon closer inspection, we noticed that the safety and magazine release were ambidextrous. ". Get 12 Issues a year of the country's best firearms writing. I just started a new thread under Sig Rifles to cover Vrtus Patrol. I wrote SilencerCo to ask about the Hybrid compatibility. With the stock folded, the gun is only 16 inches long, making it the shortest 300 Blackout weapon on the market. Sig M400 tread or Springfield saint victor : r/ar15 - reddit Hornadys 110-grain V-MAX bullet penetrated 26 inches and retained 88.7 grains of its original bullet weight. This gun was designed from the ground up to be as discrete as possible while retaining all the capabilities of the MCX. I was a big Sig fan , After buyig the 1st Tread M400 , I had the Tread 5.56 Pistol on my list , then the Tread 716I - .308 AR-10 , But when I went to buy the tread M400 5.56 pistol I looked at the Springfield Saint 300 Black out . Despite the unique internals, the MCXs controls are similar to a standard ARs, which helps because most shooters are familiar with the latters manual of arms. As for Springfields PDW, it is an AR, so it has familiar controls. Targets left and center showed four A-zone hits, but one shot on each target was outside of the A-zone. I fired the PDW at both an indoor and outdoor range on a cloudy day. Eventually, ammo manufacturers answered the call, and now dozens offer 300 Blackout loads for a variety of uses. While many people often think of AR pistols as just short-barreled carbines, in this case, the pistol appellation is quite apt. Substantial in some circumstances. I'm a sucker for. The Saint was the only carbine in the test that listed a heavy tungsten buffer among its specs, and it showed by delivering less felt recoil to the shooter. Now more are jumping into the AR-15 market. The ambidextrous controls worked quite well, and the safety lever on the off hand did not interfere with the shooter, be he right-handed or left-handed. Since then, the company expanded the line of guns to include a range of variations that fall into three main lines. Wed prefer a free-float sling attachment, but the Saint is handsome and well made at a good price. The hammer and trigger components were treated to a silvery nickel-boron coating. The "Tread yellow marking" is just an mlok insert, mine didn't even come with one, but you can easily remove it. We also liked the bead-blast finish on the barrel. and the had the CZ Parrot checkmate 9mm $3,299. Our Team Said: The CMMG Mk4T showed extremely good balance. I was really happy . SIG MCX Rattler SBR . And in the end after a couple of weeks go by she said to my are you happy with your choice I said of course , why I said . The buttstock was adjustable for length by compressing the lower panel running in line with the buffer tube. The M400 tread is sort of a gimmicky rifle from Sig. I've handled a Saint, and I would definitely go with the Sig. Looking past the outdated grip and buttstock, this is a very good rifle that deserved a much better trigger. I own the Springfield Saint Victor. This is why the gun world is awash in top-notch 300 Blackout pistols. Thanks to the precise trigger, the shooter always felt he was in complete control. With the desire for a more up-to-date AR-15, we went shopping and found that we didnt have to break the bank just get comfortable within a price range of about $900 to $1250 dollars. The rear-sight assembly (sometimes referred to as BUIS or backup iron sight) was a flip-up design. I'm curious what kind of accuracy you are going to see out of that thing. Suppressed though, that Saint Pistol is terrific. Please keep us posted. Love this gun . The Saint is one of the most user-friendly versions of this user-friendly platform. Before we jump headlong into what the market holds, perhaps we should touch upon why you might want to go a 300 Blackout pistol. Following the success of its initial collaboration with Vertx, Premier Body Armor announces its continued partnership. Additionally, the gun has one of the best brace systems going, a fast-deploying affair that cuts the size of the firearm nearly in half when folded in. Privacy Policy. I have a lot of love for my BCM because it was my first full build but the Saint is a great rifle off the shelf. PDWs are an established, in-between class of firearm. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201for-carve-out/, http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=305685, https://www.nraila.org/articles/2017cal-gun-dealer, http://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/03/5406606027600/, St. Gabriel Possenti Patron Saint of Handgunners, If this is your first visit, be sure to To test the SIG MCX Rattler SBR as it might be used on a deployment, I added a few accessories. PDW stands for personal defense weapon. It is not a term that Springfield Armory invented. To extend it, just give the brace a vigorous yank. The Rattler runs a very dependable gas-piston system, which eliminates all the fouling typical in these short-barreled configurations. Maybe they will give me some clarity. It also directs sound and blast forward, away from the shooter and provides some flash reduction. He called it a stutter. I have a sig elite which is similar to the tread, no issues solid rifle. While the plastic handguard and the buttstock showed a little bit of play, fit and function of the more important parts of the M400 Classic were exceptional. The aluminum hanguard is 6 inches long and has M-LOK attachment slots. The Springfield Armory Saint Edge PDW brings to mind a saying from Rush Limbaugh: Illustrating absurdity by being absurd. It offers, at least when compared to a standard rifle/carbine, compromised ballistics and a nearly comical appearance, and I havent done executive protection work in quite some time. Additionally, given the use of heavier bullets (200-grains plus and thereabouts), the loads have a smaller powder charge compared to their supersonic counterparts. This video does make me feel better about Springfield. Installed with a 3/8-inch drive socket from the front, it can fit under handguards. Maybe i'll sell the .308 if they ship me a new replacement and get an M1A instead, but i'm not exactly dying to give that money right back to them after this fiasco. 5.56 Rattler? | SIG Talk 8 of the Top ARs for the Money - Wide Open Spaces Comfortable to hold, the handguard offered the most versatility of our three rifles. The 2nd pic is from the Sig website.. SIG Sauer has just introduced their latest offering in their tread series of rifles with the introduction of the SIG TREAD Snakebite SE. I mainly shoot at an indoor range. The Black Hills 77-grain OTM rounds were next best, showing an average five-shot group measuring about 0.9 inch. Both short-barreled rifle (SBR) and pistol variants of the MCX Rattler are available. Dont be fooled, a 16-inch carbine in Blackout will outperform a 9-inch Blackout pistol. Springfield Armory SAINT Victor AR-15s; WATCH: SIG Sauer M400 . The first was the SilencerCo Omega 9K, which is only 4.7 inches long and weighs 7.2 ounces. If the Mk4T had either of the triggers found on the SIG Sauer or Springfield Armory carbines, it might have been the accuracy champ of this test. Build a gun that works and, by gum, the world will beat a path to your door. Awesome pistol by the way. Although the drill was shot cold, we couldnt help but be more warmed up by the time we reached the third gun. I'm looking for advice on whether to buy a Sig Sauer MCX or the Springfield Armory Saint (new free float version). Introduced in 2015, the MCX is essentially a larger, rifle-caliber version of Sig Sauers pistol-caliber MPX. then they had the new CZ 75 Tactical Sport 2 Blue in $1,699 . Ive also thought the same thing about 20-round magazines in a full-size AR. Sig Sauer M400 Tread .223/5.56 Semi-Automatic 30rd 16" I own and have experience in small arms and shotguns, so this will be an entry level AR for me. I think I've driven myself mad with comparing the pros and cons. PDWs in the modern era see most use with government security details where large rifles are not needed. Working the charging handle was smooth and revealed no linear movement. Springfield Saint Edge PDW AR Pistol Review - Guns and Ammo The grip was certainly not traditional, offering a very friendly profile, including a pinkie ledge, at the bottom and an extended backstrap up over the web of the hand. Sig Sauer. We really liked the handguard. Ah, the AR-pistol. As such, the challenge for Springfield Armory was to offer an AR-15 that distinguished itself from the competition and was affordably priced. This gun has a picatinny rail system for accessories, a six-position collapsible stock, a flash suppressor and a single-stage trigger. Units specializing in covert, ship-borne or hostage-rescue operations still wanted PDWs with more powerrifle-caliber power to be exact. The art of shooting groups from support is about being patient. Thanks Bio. Colt Model 1861 Special Musket: What's Its Value? More money for ammo, Fsatureless affords full capacity magazines, @bamaengineer may i ask why you would choose the Sig over the Saint? There was another location for a QD sling from either side at the rear of the receiver just below where the buffer tube was attached. Our action test was designed to tell us more about trigger response and maneuverability than could be culled from a static benchrest session. Minuteman. I really liked the Blue TS2 ,so in the end she was getting one for me for a surprise for my birthday . What surprised me as much as the complete reliability was how soft-shooting the PDW was. The Sig Sauer Rattler. The BCM Gunfighter grip provided a steeper angle than the others, including the Magpul grip found on the M400. Its very handy. The abbreviated configurations of Americas favorite firearm are practically perfect in every way. The old-fashioned buttpad didnt bother us because it was properly fit, but wed definitely change out the grip. SIG MCX Rattler - Xtreme Guns & Ammo The Springfield Armory SAINT Line - The Armory Life If you havent heard yet, be advised that millions of gun owners may soon be classified as felons if a new Bureau of Alcohol, AR-15 Carbines for Less Than $1300: The Winner is a Saint, SIG Sauer P365XL Spectre P365V001 9mm Luger, Springfield Armory Hellcat Pro HCP9379BOSP 9mm Luger, SHOT 2023: Savage Arms Introduces 1911 Government Model Pistols, 5 Best 9mm Pistols for Concealed Carry in 2023, New Shooters Guide: The Best Gun For Home Defense Isnt a. But thats what your 20-inch barreled baby is for, right? I've shot the Saint a few times and my local lgs and I like the trigger, feel and ergonomics. A forum community dedicated to SIG Sauer Pistols and SIG Sauer Rifles owners and enthusiasts. Barrels with twist rates of 1:8 inches and even 1:7 inches have replaced the original-issue lands and grooves that spun the bullets at a rate of 1:9. Can the SIG MCX Rattler do it? However, it does have certain things to recommend it over those others. My wife said I'm going to buy me a new gun which one do you think the Blue or Orange . Any ways I just bought the Springfield Saint Victor in .308 . document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Has anyone actually tried the omega 9k on the rattler? These guns eventually faded awaypartially because of their ammunition and because it was easier to use a variant of the M4 Carbinebut the need did not. But it was visible when we used the Romeo4 red-dot scope. The only complaint is the 300 Blackouts A2 flash hider. It has a pretty decent barrel and is reliable, so I can recommend it as a solid choice. Springfield Saint Victor Rifles | Palmetto State Armory I really like the trigger in the Saint but the 716i has really good features too. Thats as short as ARs get. With regard to accuracy, I wasnt just worried that a 5.5-inch barrel, which sports just 3.25-inches of rifling, would shoot minute of bucket, I was worried there wouldnt be enough spin to stabilize heavy bullets out to 100 yards. I am reminded that short barrels are inherently more accurate as there is less flexing during the recoil cycle. I have not shot the Tread, I have handled and inspected it though. Is there anything sweeter than these mighty mites? The heavier 120- to 125-grain loads performed similarly. Not as expensive as their Carbon Fiber wrapped Barrel model, but probably my most costly AR15 to date. New Springfield Saint. Somy wife and i was having lunch with the Sig rep. and I asked about the .308 maybe coming out in the tread And he said soon which it did . Got to check one out a few days ago at my LGS who's a Tier 1 Sig dealer. SA ars get a lot of shit from people but it has been a really good rifle. MCX or Saint - Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Two of the loads were subsonic; Sigs 220-grain OTMs clustered into 0.7 inches while Lehigh Defenses 194-grain Maximum Expansion (ME) rounds created a 1-inch group. Like the MPX, the MCX uses a short-stroke gas piston system, which does away with the need for a buffer system, and the weapon can use a folding stock or no stock at all. The Eberlestock bag worked well with the gun sporting a suppressor and fully loaded, and removing the can and ammunition would allow the Rattler to slide into a small laptop case. After comparing the two the Springfield was built better and . What sets the SIG MCX Rattler apart? Springfield provides a hand stop to keep your fingers from straying in front of the muzzle, but it is somewhat reduced in size. You have entered an incorrect email address! If you need a discreet weapon for 100-yard engagements, it's perfect. Built with a premium nickel boron coated trigger, forged carrier, enhanced Melonite coated carrier group and a pinned gas block, every rifle is built for ultimate reliability. The two most well-known modern PDWs are the FN P90 and the HK MP7. The gun is boringly reliable and is sized to be a near-constant companionat least anywhere youll tote a rucksack. The recoil was manageable with the hottest loads, and it was a pleasure to shoot with subsonics. Depending on where you stand in the stabilization debate, this could prove a dealbreaker. Rattler was built to be fired primarily unsuppressed, with the ability to be suppressed, if needed. Two additional components from Bravo Company contributed to the Saints distinctive lines. I would go with the sig. With the stock folded, the gun is only 16 inches long, making it the shortest 300 Blackout weapon on the market. It's basically a bcm with the Saint logo on it. Taurus Marketing Manager Caleb Giddings highlights the features of the new Taurus Raging Hunter 460 Magnum, a purpose-built revolver with a 10.5-inch barrel and an effective recoil-taming brake, with Guns & Ammo Executive Editor Joe Kurtenbach. So move along . Springfield SAINT Edge PDW: New 5.56 Pistol Is Just 18.75 Inches Long So much so that we almost took to calling it a three-stage trigger. The result was sub-MOA groups (less than 1 inch center to center) from two of the five test ammunitions, including our lightest bullet and our heaviest. But I will check out Sig's new Tread SE to see if I like it Yeah. AR-15 Carbines for Less Than $1300: The Winner is a Saint